Ring Ratings Update Extra: Panel votes to re-rank Haney in P4P if Garcia win is changed to ‘no-contest’

Ryan Garcia won his anticipated April 20 showdown with Devin Haney but lost the opportunity to win the WBC 140-pound title or take his amateur rival’s No. 1 spot in The Ring’s junior welterweight rankings when he weighed in 3.2 pounds over the division limit.

The uneven playing field that the weight discrepancy caused also took the Gen-Z superstar out of the running to replace Haney in The Ring’s pound-for-pound rankings. However, Haney’s sub-par performance against Garcia, who dropped him three times and repeatedly tagged him with left hooks, resulted in his being dropped from his No. 6 perch in the pound-for-pound top 10. 

But the news of Garcia’s positive VADA test result for the banned substance Ostarine put the 25-year-old influencer’s victory in a much uglier light. 

It should be noted that Garcia, who maintains his innocence, has requested that his B samples be analyzed before he goes before the New York State Athletic Commission and has hired Global Sports Advocates LLC (specialists in anti-doping violations) to represent him in the process.

For all the details on this development (and the possible repercussions) please read Jake Donovan’s report.

Tom Gray kicked off the discussion on what to do if the NYSAC suspends Garcia and changes the Californian’s majority decision win to a no-contest or no-decision result.

“One thing to consider is Haney’s P4P placement,” said Gray. “From what we know so far, he wasn’t only in against a guy who was over the weight limit, but he was also in against a guy that had two banned substances in his system. [Editor’s Note: Gray is referring to 19-norandrosterone, a second banned substance that was detected but one that Garcia was recently cleared of using.]

“If that result is ruled a no-contest, then I believe Haney should be reinstated. Food for thought. Just mentioning it while I remember.”

Donovan immediately agreed with Gray. Your favorite Editor-In-Chief did not – at first.

“Regarding Haney’s reinstatement, I’d be with it had we replaced him with Ryan Garcia, but we didn’t do that,” stated the EIC. “Garcia wasn’t ranked prior to the Haney fight, and he doesn’t deserve to be ranked after it, not just because he may have popped dirty, but because he’s NOT A GOOD BOXER! Haney struggled with Garcia, and I don’t think it’s just because Ryan came in heavy and juiced. Devin was clipped with the same left hook that’s been dynamite since Ryan was a teenager. He of all people knew that coming in. So, I may be branded a ‘Haney Hater’ but I’m just fine with leaving him out and keeping Junto Nakatani at No. 10.”

Wasim Mather, Michael Montero and Diego Morilla agreed with Yours Truly. 

“I’m also going to side with the points Doug made about Haney,” said Mather. “I agree on keeping him out of the P4P.”

Added Montero:

“As I already mentioned about Haney, I was never sold on him as a P4P fighter to begin with. We should keep him out for now. As Doug mentioned, the extra 3 lbs and Ostarine definitely enhanced Ryan’s performance, but Haney struggled with him skillswise from the opening bell.” 

Added Morilla:

“I said it once, and I’ll say it again: our pound-for-pound ratings are hard to break into but almost impossible to break away from. Once you’re in, it takes an act of God to take you out, and it’s not the best idea. Furthermore, and even though I risk ruffling some feathers and giving a few trolls some ammunition, I do believe that there’s a tendency (conscious or otherwise) to keep certain high-profile fighters in our P4P list for as long as possible in order to placate a portion of the fan base, sometimes going as far as neglecting true and pure boxing talent in favor of popularity.

“I do get the fact that Haney’s career before Garcia was stellar, but there are other fighters who deserve consideration. Nakatani is one such fighter. He is one of the best Japanese fighters in a golden era for boxing in that country, and his work has been impeccable. I do get the fact that Haney deserves consideration for facing an overweight foe who may have cheated, but that shouldn’t stop us from recognizing other talents as well. I believe Nakatani deserves the No. 10 position while Haney gets back to his best form.”

Gray circled back to restate his case.

“It’s highly unusual for us to be miles away on anything boxing related, but I can’t agree on this one.

“IF the results are backed by the Commission, Garcia is found guilty, and this fight is declared a no-contest, then here’s my take:

“While we can be confident that Garcia would have done that job without taking PEDs, he clearly wasn’t confident, or he wouldn’t have taken anything. The weight liberty is one thing, but taking substances that increase muscle mass and build strength is in another dimension.

“I don’t think Haney should be penalized in any way, shape or form if that fight is ruled a no contest. If boxing was regulated properly, Garcia, if guilty, would face something in the region of a four-year ban and an astronomical fine. His career would be close to being over.

“Haney did not look pound-for-pound quality in the Garcia fight, and I said that at the time. However, if he was in against someone that abused PEDs, then all bets are off. As we all know, this issue is getting worse by the year and I’ll be shocked if we don’t get a PED-related fatality by the end of this decade. The default response in boxing following a fail is denial, denial and find a way around it. It’s long past sickening.

“I’m cool to go with consensus on Haney, but I’d want my views on the record (which I know they would be anyway).”

Who know how much extra power the banned substance Ostarine added to Garcia’s punches? Photo by Cris Esqueda/Golden Boy

Gray’s words reached Adam Abramowitz, Abraham Gonzalez, Daisuke Sugiura and Tris Dixon.

“Tom, you have convinced me,” said Abramowitz. “If the fight is ruled a no-contest, I will vote to keep Haney where he was prior to the fight. 

Added Abraham:

“Tom, you have also convinced me. Once the commission makes its ruling (which I anticipate being a no-contest), then we can officially say he remains because of it.

Added Daisuke:

“I agree with Tom here. Haney didn’t look like a PFP fighter for sure, but it always depends on who you face. Shinsuke Yamanaka was also considered a PFP caliber talent, but he didn’t look like that at all against a bigger, stronger and confident overweight Luis Nery with PEDs (in his system). I feel there’s some similarities between these two cases. You just don’t function like you are supposed to when you face someone unexpectedly bigger and stronger. 

“I just had an interview with Junto Nakatani a few days ago. Junto was visibly happy to be recognized as a PFP top 10 fighter, and I was happy for him too. But I still feel it’s extremely unfair for Haney, and, with all due respect, I just don’t think these PED issues are taken seriously enough in the US. Nery was banned from Japan for 5 years because we thought he messed with someone’s life, but I’m sure Garcia will be back after 6 months like nothing happened.”

Luis Nery vs. Shinsuke Yamanaka I, Aug. 15. Photo / Naoki Fukuda

Added Dixon:

“Tom, admire the attitude, belief system and thought process, and I agree.

“However, with warning, you’ve opened Pandora’s box when it happens again.

“As Daisuke pointed out, this isn’t the first time….”

Even the EIC had a change of heart.

“Hey Tom and Daisuke, you guys both make really good points, and I’m good to go with whatever the majority of the Panel suggests for this case. 

“If we’re waiting on how the New York commission rules, we could be waiting a long time, and sometimes these commissions don’t even bother (see the Alycia Baumgardner case in Michigan). Tom, you make a really good point about Ryan’s hook landing with drug-enhanced power. And Daisuke, your comparison with the Yamanaka-Nery fight is enlightening. When Nery popped dirty after their first bout, we stripped him of The Ring belt, dropped him from the ratings, and reinstated Yamanaka as champ. It was the right thing to do. As Daisuke mentioned, Yamanaka was P4P rated at the time (maybe No. 10). I don’t recall what happened with that ranking, although because he briefly retired after the bout and retired for good after the rematch, my guess is that he was no longer in the P4P.

“I still don’t think Haney’s P4P level but it’s just an opinion.”

Still, not all were convinced. 

Senior editor Brian Harty shared his contrarian thoughts: 

“Yamanaka went in(to the first Nery fight) rated at No. 10 p4p. The week he was reinstated as bantam champion was the same week Andre Ward was removed from p4p because he retired, and the No. 10 vacancy went to Srisaket Sor Rungvisai, who’d knocked out [Roman] Gonzalez a couple weeks earlier. So it’s hard to say what the decision process was.

“It would be incredibly unpopular to leave Haney out, because PEDs have become such an ethical issue, but I agree with Doug. Frankly, I don’t see much difference between completely ignoring weight limits and taking drugs. Both are ways to gain a physical advantage and both increase the chance of injury to the opponent. In some ways the weight violation is worse, because not only are you giving yourself an edge illegally but you’re also not subjecting yourself to the same risks that extreme dehydration brings.

“Tom, I’m looking back to your comments after the fight:

“But I think Haney needs to fall off for one reason only. How many people switched their pick to Garcia because he weighed in heavy? Nobody gave a shit, so let’s not rewrite history. Haney lost to an 8-1 underdog – not a pound for pound entrant – because he fought a poor tactical fight and was repeatedly nailed by killer left hooks. It was a terrible performance against a guy who was given next to no chance by fans, media and oddsmakers.”

“Daisuke said:

“Haney didn’t look like a PFP fighter for sure, but it always depends on who you face. … You just don’t function like you are supposed to when you face someone unexpectedly bigger and stronger.”

“For me it’s too much speculation. We just saw an example of a guy facing a technically inferior but enormous opponent, same as Haney did. [Jaime] Munguia didn’t budge a millimeter when hit by Canelo’s early punches, but Canelo did what a true p4p fighter does. We saw it in that performance. I don’t know what was inside Haney’s mind. I definitely don’t know what was in Garcia’s mind – it’s not a place I want to be. What I do know is how Haney performed, and as you said, Tom, let’s not rewrite history. I think everything you pointed out still holds true, so in my mind this is inconsistent. Sorry if that seems cold and callous, but I honestly don’t see why flaunting the weight limit and failing drug tests should be treated so differently. At the end of the day, I can’t say which gives Garcia a greater advantage. So is it just what we see as heinous or what the labs say is illegal? Would there be an automatic reinstatement if he had tested positive for cocaine? I know we’ve already gone over this, and I was fine with agreeing to disagree, but I think the rationale for removing Haney in the first place was also inconsistent. After acknowledging that boxing is completely different in today’s world, we separated Haney from the Spence situation based on a precedent from 40 years ago. The only reason I bring it up again is just to suggest that eye tests can be more significant than precedents. But again, I realize I’ll probably be called a sociopath for these opinions.”

Added Anson Wainwright:

“If the fight is rendered a no-contest then we’re basically being asked to pretend we didn’t see what we saw in Haney-Garcia, which was a shit storm from start to finish.

“Haney looked like a pound-for-pound guy against [Regis] Prograis and then awful against old amateur rival Garcia. Personally, I like Nakatani in our top 10 (I feel for the Japanese because Kazuto Ioka has a great shout to be in the top 10) but I feel if the fight is a no-contest we can’t really not put Haney back in.” 

The EIC wanted to be sure the Panel was in favor of Haney’s reinstatement contingent upon a no-contest/no-decision ruling from the NYSAC.

“Thanks to all of the Panel members who have weighed in on this situation. It’s clear that the majority is in favor of reinstating Devin Haney in the P4P rankings. What I want to be clear on is when does this happen?

“Do we want him back in now – regardless of how the NYSAC may or may not rule – or is it only contingent upon the NYSAC changing the official result of the Garcia fight to a no contest? 

“Reminder: some of these commissions are almost as ‘political’ as the sanctioning organizations.”

Morilla: 

“I say we wait until NYSAC gets this thing sorted out. We had this conversation before about how we should take ‘official results’ as they are, to avoid the risk of taking uninformed decisions, and I stand by that.

Abramowitz:

“I personally would not make a move to reinstate until the commission has decided. If a no-contest has been decided, I think we should throw it back to the panel.”

Donovan:

“I was under the impression that reinstatement wouldn’t take place until (or IF) the NYSAC overturned the verdict. 

“To add to Doug’s earlier point on commissions dragging their feet… NYSAC only officially informed record keepers in April to overturn the Joe Cusumano-Adam Kownacki verdict from last June 24. And that’s even after acknowledging that the matter was under investigation since last September.

“Garcia has formally requested to test the B-samples for his April 19 and April 20 tests. That could help expedite the commission’s investigation, though it’s still the NYSAC we’re talking about.” 

Wainwright:

“For me, we need the NYSAC to rule the fight a no-contest and then Haney goes back in.”

Gonzalez:

“I was told a little while ago that NYSAC has 15 days after the results of the B Sample are received. Take that for what it’s worth lol so maybe at the end of the month we will get that news?”